Interested in the discussion here with NaomiM, and I can recognise some of the points made in a number of other books. As a reader, I have a 'good feeling' of a solid and well-written piece of story telling. Is that not what we all look for? I do, and did with BattleStone. Good luck with it, I suspect it will do very well. MHM

Hi David,
I'm completely gripped by this The opening is tricky , but as it is in italics I didn't worry that I didn't know what it was about, and assume that I will find out at a later stage. Have read first two chapters and will put this on my watchlist and will come back asap to read more. The period tone seems very natural - although I'm not an expert, but there definitely isn't a 'pastiche' feel to this. Looking forward to reading more.

Margaret (Munro's Choice - set in 16th century Scotland)

Hi David! I've read through chapter 6 so far -- I'll be back for the rest later, but this seemed like a good place to pause, given that Harold and Ealdyth are actually safe, happy, and serene for the moment. An extremely rare event, heh heh -- and one that I know CAN'T last long.

This is a detailed, thoughtful, remarkably well-crafted story; I have only the most basic familiarity with the cast of characters around the Norman Conquest, but I recognize that everyone I *do* know is right where they should be when they should be there -- and this, combined with the confidence in the writing and the careful references to the weapons and even skirmish-tactics of the time helped make the book-world feel very real and very vivid to me. AND! Particularly interesting about that era (well, to me!) and something that I was REALLY glad to see you get such good traction out of, is the phenomenal mixing going on at the time -- race, language, religion, EVERYTHING. These people were syncretic mongrels (hee hee) and yes -- Jesus could bring them to Valhalla, or the Holy Trinity could be conflated with the Triple Goddess! And we HEAR ALL ABOUT IT from the locals, and in their thoughts! (There is a fair amount of POV-jumping -- this is an older style, and one that I personally happen to like -- I was NEVER CONFUSED about whose head I was in, and the perspective I got always seemed to be a relevant one; however, since POV-jumping is not in favor at the moment, I'll go ahead and mention it while I'm thinking of being in people's thoughts!)

When we started off with Boulogne, I didn't hate the guy yet (even if he was clearly arrogant and entitled, not an endearing combination). It was actually a nice switcheroo you pulled there; Boulogne wasn't comporting himself TERRIBLY (even though I was a little displeased that when his men didn't follow him out of the melee, he blithely left ANYWAY) until...the, to me, absolutely shocking attack on the page, which I could not understand in the slightest until my heart sank with Boulogne's lie. Heh heh...well, we needed to establish that there was trouble in Dover, and we needed a VERY unsympathetic Norman, and Boulogne CERTAINLY manages to be repellant enough!

But clearly not our protagonist. I was a little worried at first with all the new names coming at me, but I found that they were surprisingly easy to juggle. Of course you MENTION all the Godwinssens, but you focus on only a few in any closer detail. And while someone like Swein doesn't have much of a direct role in the proceedings, despite being important...history has kindly favored him with a name that is particularly apropos and consequently impossible to forget!

Edith, frustrated and vindictive, makes a great villainess -- all the more so because I started out feeling so sorry for her, especially with that wedding night scene. Well, uh, my sympathy didn't last long! The nobles here are, by and large, SUCH an unpleasant crew -- that's just how it was back then, and you don't pull any punches, nor should you! -- with the backstabbings and the blindings and the burnings and so forth, that the fact of Harold's wanting to get OUT of the race and retire to a common life is probably enough on its own to make him sympathetic! But we see a lot more of the complexity of his choices and relationships (his beloved Ealdyth has to endure being a sort of concubine rather than a proper wife; he's stuck defending and suffering for the choices of a brother he thinks is monstrous and one he suspects is...unreliable; he protects his friend Malcolm by shielding from knowledge that could give Malcolm his deepest desire). And I know what's up ahead for him, of course -- everyone knows *that* much history. And it's just so sad, because Harold feels so real.

Despite the violence of the opening scene, BattleStone (which I suspect is quite a long manuscript in its entirety!) has a fairly slow start -- Boulogne isn't the main character, and we need a lot of background and set-up before we get to Edward's unsuccessful ambush of Harold et al. Since you're dealing with some EXTREMELY knotty background relationships/crimes/insults/misdeeds and we HAVE to know about them, I think that it's okay for us not quite to have the main gears of the story start turning for a while. There are a few incidents in the first two chapters: Boulogne's assassination of the poor page -- Edith's wedding night and in fact ANYTHING to do with her ;-) -- Harold jumping out with "ODIN!" -- the fights, that I think supply more than enough interest (at least they did for me) to keep readers going until we see the broader picture. BUT! Because "slow starts" are frowned upon at the moment, I figured I'd better mention it. Although I'm not sure they're frowned upon in historicals -- and I certainly hope they're not because, er, we don't have many options about doing backstory and exposition!!!

Some ideas for possible tweaks. In chapter 4, part of Harold's conversation with Ealdyth was absolutely lovely -- but part of it felt perhaps too modern in tone, when they rejected racial and cultural differences as a basis for war (even though of course it's important to demonstrate how mixed the people and society were then, AND to emphasize Harold's desire to be free of the miserable waste of war...especially when he's about to be stuck in the position he'll have before the Norman Conquest!). AND...that scene with MACBETH!!! Okay, that is a potent scene. You're already not telling it through dialogue, since you back out into narrative. MAYBE you could take one MORE step back and do the whole chilling bit as a flashback, so we can experience it IN THE MOMENT along with poor Harold!

So, such are some thoughts so far! This is a splendid story, and definitely a book I'd buy -- very best of luck!!!

Hey Kate, many thanks for your insightful, informed .. and very welcome comments. Also thanks for reading so much of it .. you could be unique. I reckon you've discerned what this is all about, but I suspect that may be more due to you than me.

I started writing it before I really knew what a pov was, but wanted very much to simply tell a reinterpreted complex story, set in a confusing time. I wanted my reader to know fairly quickly what was happening or what had already happened, before introducing the next new puzzle or revelation. Instinctively, I adopted the omniscient third person narrator approach. Since discovering that this is unfashionable, I've reassessed, but, so far, stuck to my original concept. We need to know *everything*, and will, as the Skald says in his intro. I feel like adding 'Important notice. Please read before starting!' over his little delivery. You say that you had no difficulty with the pov-jumping - and for that I'm grateful. My writing was further complicated by my adherence to recorded dates and characters - and in most cases events. I make a proviso with the latter, because a few of them are fictionalised representations of real incidents - but the dates and people involved and the sequelae are accurate.

Starting with Boulogne in a prologue gives me the opportunity for some action and conflict, and sets the scene for the nasty times. Also, many people know the ending and some will know the story, so having Boulogne start it all ( as he and his ilk indeed did ) slightly wrong-foots the reader. William has just finished being very busy and starts to sort of slide into the story. He's already a main player, but nobody except him knows it until later. Harold can handle such as Boulogne, but William is different. He and Harold are well-matched, they respect each other, possibly could become friends - but William doesn't know how - he recognises only two sorts of people, allies and enemies - and the 'bastard' duke craves respectability via a crown.

I'm delighted that you felt sorry for Edith initially; she had a raw deal - but that doesn't excuse her subsequent behaviour - and she gets much worse!

Oh dear, slow-start, backstory and exposition - I agree with you entirely - but I feel I (writers) have to risk it with complex stories. Unless the foundations are put down the building won't stand - (I tell myself .. again .. and again ..)

I tried conversation between friends and intimates in other than almost modern English, and they sounded like Elizabethan courtly dalliances, and they lacked friendliness and intimacy. As my characters would not be speaking English (or any other language) as we know it, again I've chanced a modern translation, particularly with Harold and Ealdyth ( and, dare I mention it, between him and Matthilde and Alditha.) I've nearly convinced myself that this also indicates a separateness of these relationships from the world Harold wishes to eschew.

I fully take your point about Harold's meeting with Macbeth - and it is vital to the plot - 'a person's fate is predetermined by their own nature. We are our future. What will happen, will, unless we change.'

I'm really grateful for your words, and I shall play around off-screen, and see what comes along. As long as a reader understands the story, and my 'take' on it and remains, despite themselves, not completely sure that Harold will die - Hastings -arrow - urrgh - The End, I shall be happy. Here's hoping for 'Independence.'

I'm not sure if you still check this, since you haven't been online in more than 100 days, but I like the start of this a lot. You introduce (and kill off) a lot of characters and a world that most people will be unfamiliar with in very short space, and you even manage to do it so that I'm interested in and understand what's going on. I'm not quite sure how you do it. I had trouble following it at first, but then I started over and read it aloud and it was suddenly perfectly clear, which is odd, and I'm not sure why that would be, but I think it says good things rather than bad about your writing. I've been fascinated with this story since I saw the Bayeux tapestry and the names especially take me back to Old English class. So I'm glad to have found this.

Hi fellow authonomist..

I've read a portion of your work and feel that you write well enough to be backed. I have only looked at the way you construct dialogue and how authentic it is, your characterizations, your descriptive powers and the tightness of your prose. My backing has nothing to do with how well you spell or punctuate, for I need all the help with this myself. Neither am i commenting on the originality or how good your story is. Finally, i believe every book is holistic, and there is no one way to open a novel, or how to make it flow, so I will not force my own style on you, pretending it to be the best.

I have received all the comments I need, and my book, Dream Diamond, is now ready for the Ed's desk to receive a professional evaluation.

I ask you to BACK Dream Diamond NOW, even without a read or comment.

If you want me to comment on you specifically, message me.

BACKED

My best wishes for you and your book.

Jupiter Echoes

I'm back as promised for more! This is a really grippingb read, in the tradition of the old norse sagas,and being my gendre, I can appreciate the immense amount of research you've obviously done to provide such authenticity.I see below that others have already offered you some tips, so rather that repeat anything, all I will say is that re your list of characters at the beginning - I had a similar problem with footnotes at the bottom of my pages - the feedback I got suggested that they were too distracting, and slowed things up. I wonder if you'd get a sharper, more action packed start if you moved them , perhaps to an appendix at the back? Just a thought.Please take it in the spirit it's offered, for it's your book, and a damn good one! Giving it another run on my shelf, Grant

Found this from Pitch Me - how could I have missed this!Definitely my kind of read , On W/L and will comment asap, best, Grant

Just had a very swift look to see if it's the sort of thing I can read - yes I can! Your writing style looks good, and the setting (from what I saw) is believable. Very promising. Good luck with it. Shall return anon

Hi David. I love historical fiction and this is no exception. I also love the individuality of the writing, although I have to say, it's not always easy to read. I think you have a comma affliction as there are lots out of place and a fixing of this would lead to a smoother read. But I liked it enough to persevere, so that tells you how much it grabbed me.
A few things I noticed, and forgive me if they've been pointed out before:
'by fallen water..' by the rise and fall of the tide?
'cloud hid late afternoon sun..' clouds hid *a* late afternoon sun?
'jerking his mare's bridle..' his mare's *reins*?
'a crowd of men...its general demeanour..' *their* demeanour.
'walking his mount backwards, he withdrew..' withdrew is a repetition. And a rider would *back* his horse, so it would read better as 'backing his horse (a few paces?) he waited.'
'the only music he was ever fond of had been in her voice..' this is a touch clumsy. 'The only music he'd ever been fond of was in her voice?'
When Arnaut is shot by Sirg, he falls forward. As he's been shot in the chest, surely he should be knocked backwards?
'good or bad luck..' simply *luck*?
The line about archery not being significant in England gave me pause. What about the famous English longbows?
Harold replied in Englisc..' is this a typo? You also have 'English', so I assume it is.
'and never fully understand..' fully *understood*?
'pony-horses..' pony-sized horses?
'though much older than her..' than *she*?
Anyway, nit-picks aside I'm happy to back this because I find it evocative and atmospheric and just that little bit different.
Hope the comments help, David, and I wish you all the best.
xx
Cas.

David,

I read through the prologue and first chapter. I think that the first chapter, after the ..."and my story had begun" is tight. The leadin seems confusing, disjointed, and unnecessary. It's almost as if you are trying to write in the manner of the period yet the rest of your novel doesn't carry the same voice, so I found the change in gears not only disconcerting but disjointed. I would consider eliminating or revising that piece.

Other than that I liked the voice, the characters, and the verse. I thought the writing was tight. I have shelved as I feel like it is something I might buy in a bookstore and something I could get into.

Good luck with it and best wishes,
Chris
http://www.authonomy.com/ViewBook.aspx?bookid=4441

Hi David,

Battlestone! Nice title, also a nice pitch. Whets my appetite for some sword clashing, dirt munching gore fights. I printed this off to crit last week and I just wrote a whole rant about the cast list… but now it’s gone!

So somebody beat me to it. Okay this crit is going to be short now!

Your style is fantastic for the setting. The term “pitch perfect” isn’t one I invented but I’m adopting it. It’s very hard to pick fault at because it reads like an authoritative recollection of the period and I’m not one to argue. Wouldn’t want to whittle fact from fiction.

But the child in me still laughed when I saw “Great Cnut”!

Only found one DREADED BUT at the start of a paragraph. “But, wiser not to dwell on that…” Everyone seems to sneak one in somewhere in their first three chapters. I live in fear that I’ve done it myself but it’s bad. Evil!

No point commenting on the names since they’re all actual factual people. Erm (I’m struggling here)…

Right, looks like there’s a double-space by accident on the first page. “Damned country! But I’ll bend them…”

There are two commas and you need neither in “…spoken with the song of the sweet, little bird, she so resembled.”

Possible typo in chapter two: “Harold replied in Englisc,”

And one comma too many for “…Harold never failed to notice and never fully understand, although, at thirty-one…”

Ashamed to say that’s as much as I found. Now the cast list has gone it’s a much prettier piece, and I wish it well.

Begone unto my shelf, you whoreson!

Chris

Thanks Patty, thanks Corinna,
All suggestions gratefully received and considered. The 'cast list' was part of file for the hard copy and will appear on separate pages in the book - so I've removed it from the 'Authonomy' version.
I've noted your other points and am pondering. I did not want this opening to be modern 'conventional' re pov's, protagonists and voice etc. - I'm kinda hoping that the 19th. century, omniscient narrator is about to make an unlikely, partial comeback in fiction.
Thanks again.

Hello David -

after a somewhat quick read of your first two chapters, I'll shelf your book now and return with more time later. This looks like very high quality historical fiction and I am a big fan of such books, and that is reason enough for me. I am afraid you will not be getting a more detailed comment than that of th einimitable Kate below, but I'll say I agree with her in many of those points she is making.

Well done,

Heikki

This is a great first chapter! I hope i'll have time to read on...

A few creases to iron out, perhaps.

Firstly, on authonomy, family trees and character lists at the beginning are a little off-putting because they're very in your face, if you see what i mean. But that's a very minor point.

I had to read the 7th non-italic paragraph twice, it was a little confusing.

Arni - i know this is a perfectly well formed abbreviation of the period name, but the comparison with Arnold Swartzneger (or however you spell it) still made me flinch slightly.

When you say Eustache slides off his horse by road, i had to check back to see who he was. You'd mostly called him by his title of Boulogne, and knowing (or thinking that i did) that there were only two people there, i was confused.

The image of the aborted foal is really horrible, as you intended!

I also loved the line 'spirits must rest sometimes'!

Great stuff.

David,

Some comments here. I'm not a regular historical fiction reader, but I've read some good historical fiction on this site.

I have to admit I'm a bit confused at the start of this novel. You start with a quote in italics, which then seems to segue into the start of chapter 1. The problem is that I don't know who the 'he' is mentioned at the start, and it's at least half a page until we get a name. Eustache. I think he is the POV in the scene. He wants to get on a boat, but thw weather is too bad for sailing. And so instead he's being made fun of by sailors, and he sits on his horse musing. While frustration can work as an emotion to start off a book, I'm wondering if in this case it leads to too much introspection. While he can't sail, he doesn't seem to get up to much that looks like it will be developed into a great plot. What is the issue he'll be facing in the rest of the book? I'd like to see a greater hint of that.

Hey Kate, many thanks for your insightful, informed .. and very welcome comments. Also thanks for reading so much of it .. you could be unique. I reckon you've discerned what this is all about, but I suspect that may be more due to you than me.

I started writing it before I really knew what a pov was, but wanted very much to simply tell a reinterpreted complex story, set in a confusing time. I wanted my reader to know fairly quickly what was happening or what had already happened, before introducing the next new puzzle or revelation. Instinctively, I adopted the omniscient third person narrator approach. Since discovering that this is unfashionable, I've reassessed, but, so far, stuck to my original concept. We need to know *everything*, and will, as the Skald says in his intro. I feel like adding 'Important notice. Please read before starting!' over his little delivery. You say that you had no difficulty with the pov-jumping - and for that I'm grateful. My writing was further complicated by my adherence to recorded dates and characters - and in most cases events. I make a proviso with the latter, because a few of them are fictionalised representations of real incidents - but the dates and people involved and the sequelae are accurate.

Starting with Boulogne in a prologue gives me the opportunity for some action and conflict, and sets the scene for the nasty times. Also, many people know the ending and some will know the story, so having Boulogne start it all ( as he and his ilk indeed did ) slightly wrong-foots the reader. William has just finished being very busy and starts to sort of slide into the story. He's already a main player, but nobody except him knows it until later. Harold can handle such as Boulogne, but William is different. He and Harold are well-matched, they respect each other, possibly could become friends - but William doesn't know how - he recognises only two sorts of people, allies and enemies - and the 'bastard' duke craves respectability via a crown.

I'm delighted that you felt sorry for Edith initially; she had a raw deal - but that doesn't excuse her subsequent behaviour - and she gets much worse!

Oh dear, slow-start, backstory and exposition - I agree with you entirely - but I feel I (writers) have to risk it with complex stories. Unless the foundations are put down the building won't stand - (I tell myself .. again .. and again ..)

I tried conversation between friends and intimates in other than almost modern English, and they sounded like Elizabethan courtly dalliances, and they lacked friendliness and intimacy. As my characters would not be speaking English (or any other language) as we know it, again I've chanced a modern translation, particularly with Harold and Ealdyth ( and, dare I mention it, between him and Matthilde and Alditha.) I've nearly convinced myself that this also indicates a separateness of these relationships from the world Harold wishes to eschew.

I fully take your point about Harold's meeting with Macbeth - and it is vital to the plot - 'a person's fate is predetermined by their own nature. We are our future. What will happen, will, unless we change.'

I'm really grateful for your words, and I shall play around off-screen, and see what comes along. As long as a reader understands the story, and my 'take' on it and remains, despite themselves, not completely sure that Harold will die - Hastings -arrow - urrgh - The End, I shall be happy. Here's hoping for 'Independence.'

Hi David! I've read through chapter 6 so far -- I'll be back for the rest later, but this seemed like a good place to pause, given that Harold and Ealdyth are actually safe, happy, and serene for the moment. An extremely rare event, heh heh -- and one that I know CAN'T last long.

This is a detailed, thoughtful, remarkably well-crafted story; I have only the most basic familiarity with the cast of characters around the Norman Conquest, but I recognize that everyone I *do* know is right where they should be when they should be there -- and this, combined with the confidence in the writing and the careful references to the weapons and even skirmish-tactics of the time helped make the book-world feel very real and very vivid to me. AND! Particularly interesting about that era (well, to me!) and something that I was REALLY glad to see you get such good traction out of, is the phenomenal mixing going on at the time -- race, language, religion, EVERYTHING. These people were syncretic mongrels (hee hee) and yes -- Jesus could bring them to Valhalla, or the Holy Trinity could be conflated with the Triple Goddess! And we HEAR ALL ABOUT IT from the locals, and in their thoughts! (There is a fair amount of POV-jumping -- this is an older style, and one that I personally happen to like -- I was NEVER CONFUSED about whose head I was in, and the perspective I got always seemed to be a relevant one; however, since POV-jumping is not in favor at the moment, I'll go ahead and mention it while I'm thinking of being in people's thoughts!)

When we started off with Boulogne, I didn't hate the guy yet (even if he was clearly arrogant and entitled, not an endearing combination). It was actually a nice switcheroo you pulled there; Boulogne wasn't comporting himself TERRIBLY (even though I was a little displeased that when his men didn't follow him out of the melee, he blithely left ANYWAY) until...the, to me, absolutely shocking attack on the page, which I could not understand in the slightest until my heart sank with Boulogne's lie. Heh heh...well, we needed to establish that there was trouble in Dover, and we needed a VERY unsympathetic Norman, and Boulogne CERTAINLY manages to be repellant enough!

But clearly not our protagonist. I was a little worried at first with all the new names coming at me, but I found that they were surprisingly easy to juggle. Of course you MENTION all the Godwinssens, but you focus on only a few in any closer detail. And while someone like Swein doesn't have much of a direct role in the proceedings, despite being important...history has kindly favored him with a name that is particularly apropos and consequently impossible to forget!

Edith, frustrated and vindictive, makes a great villainess -- all the more so because I started out feeling so sorry for her, especially with that wedding night scene. Well, uh, my sympathy didn't last long! The nobles here are, by and large, SUCH an unpleasant crew -- that's just how it was back then, and you don't pull any punches, nor should you! -- with the backstabbings and the blindings and the burnings and so forth, that the fact of Harold's wanting to get OUT of the race and retire to a common life is probably enough on its own to make him sympathetic! But we see a lot more of the complexity of his choices and relationships (his beloved Ealdyth has to endure being a sort of concubine rather than a proper wife; he's stuck defending and suffering for the choices of a brother he thinks is monstrous and one he suspects is...unreliable; he protects his friend Malcolm by shielding from knowledge that could give Malcolm his deepest desire). And I know what's up ahead for him, of course -- everyone knows *that* much history. And it's just so sad, because Harold feels so real.

Despite the violence of the opening scene, BattleStone (which I suspect is quite a long manuscript in its entirety!) has a fairly slow start -- Boulogne isn't the main character, and we need a lot of background and set-up before we get to Edward's unsuccessful ambush of Harold et al. Since you're dealing with some EXTREMELY knotty background relationships/crimes/insults/misdeeds and we HAVE to know about them, I think that it's okay for us not quite to have the main gears of the story start turning for a while. There are a few incidents in the first two chapters: Boulogne's assassination of the poor page -- Edith's wedding night and in fact ANYTHING to do with her ;-) -- Harold jumping out with "ODIN!" -- the fights, that I think supply more than enough interest (at least they did for me) to keep readers going until we see the broader picture. BUT! Because "slow starts" are frowned upon at the moment, I figured I'd better mention it. Although I'm not sure they're frowned upon in historicals -- and I certainly hope they're not because, er, we don't have many options about doing backstory and exposition!!!

Some ideas for possible tweaks. In chapter 4, part of Harold's conversation with Ealdyth was absolutely lovely -- but part of it felt perhaps too modern in tone, when they rejected racial and cultural differences as a basis for war (even though of course it's important to demonstrate how mixed the people and society were then, AND to emphasize Harold's desire to be free of the miserable waste of war...especially when he's about to be stuck in the position he'll have before the Norman Conquest!). AND...that scene with MACBETH!!! Okay, that is a potent scene. You're already not telling it through dialogue, since you back out into narrative. MAYBE you could take one MORE step back and do the whole chilling bit as a flashback, so we can experience it IN THE MOMENT along with poor Harold!

So, such are some thoughts so far! This is a splendid story, and definitely a book I'd buy -- very best of luck!!!

Hmm, interesting pitch. Am watchlisting, though i'm not sure when i'll get to it. I hope you found Wyatt's Hurricane, it's a good one!

David,
I feel as if I stepped back in time. Your writing is clearly powerful. How you manage to remain within the language of your story is beyond me. It is complex, to say the least. Further, your story creates one unexpected twist after another.

For instance, I never say Simeon's fate coming, but I felt it. Ah... Then, you got me again when the Wise Woman visited Edith. You lead the reader down a path, fully expecting 'A' to occur, then put in a twist that takes us down a golden path to 'Q' and the results are startling, yet delightful.

Besides keeping in theme with the era, your book requires thought. The storyline is complex and your skills are clearly demonstrated. Having written a YA historical novel, I admire your ability to weave the story with enough information to move the reader forward without bogging us down in frivilous details. Further, each little excerpt moves the book forward.

The only confusing part for me was the opening. The long list of characters might be better placed as a separate chapter, clearly labeled as "Character List" or something. I couldn't tell where the story actually began. Just a thought.

Congrats on a job well done.
Toby

Thanks Michael. Don't worry about the large cast - the mortality rate then was fairly high.

Hi Gemi, thanks for your interest.
Parke Godwin's 'Lord of Sunset' is on my desk, here, now. It has quite a number of Post-it notes between its pages, where I noticed ideas similar to some I had used in 'BattleStone'. I first read the novel after I'd finished mine, and I was dismayed, until I realised that faced with the enigmas of the 'real' story, it's not too surprising that two people writing it could conjecture some similar explanations. We probably read the same popular histories and drew and imagined the same conclusions in a few cases. I drew some encouragement when I realised that I was roughly in the right frame.
I have Morgan Llwelyn's 'The Wind from Hastings' but confess I have yet to read much of it - maybe I daren't.
Anyway, I've stuck to my original ideas and concept for the book and added more - bascally I think you have to - whilst remaining open to advice.

[ Regarding advice and changes, I put two identical threads on 'Forum', 17th. November: one on 'On Writing'; the other on 'Book Genre Message Boards > Historical Fiction'. I asked questions - the answers were interesting. ]

Hello, David. Happened to trip across this and couldn't resist. Ah, Harold Godwinssen! As a fan of books about the same by Parke Godwin and Morgan Llywelyn, I've watchlisted this one. More later. Must read through my current shelf and no more browsing for a bit.

To backstory or not to backstory - there's a dilemma I can relate to.

All the best,
Gemi

SORRY - links below on my comment - CONFUSION (!!!) don't work - that's confusing.

Threads are > Forum > 'On Writing' >'Tell me, please if this has been asked before'

> Forum > Book Genre Message Boards > 'Historical Fiction' > 'Tell me, please, if this has been asked before, here'.

Re: CONFUSION.
This is a moderately complicated story, and I set out to write it as simply as I could - but, here and elsewhere, peer and professional readers, despite being generally positive, pointed out that the beginning included too much exposition and back-story.
I changed things and found that I was happier with it. However, other people were confused and wanted more 'scene setting'. In the 'book' version, the beginning represents a prologue used to illustrate the mood of the time and the sort of opposition the chief protagonist will have to face. It's a cameo, but it does start the story, as the incident described triggers much of what follows.
In the subsequent chapter, explanation arrives by the bucket full, but I hope interest by then will be enough to permit its delivery. There are some novel length mysteries, but most puzzles are clarified without inordinate delay, but by that time another should have emerged. The tale presents a different take on a story which may be familiar to some, but which is complex. I didn't wish to complicate it further and prolong confusion - merely (hopefully) to intrigue.
'1066' and all that must be about William - well he's important but not really on the scene yet, having been busy exerting his authority over his current subjects. England has a weak king with no heir - William has only a tenuous claim to succeed Edward; Boulogne has a better one; Ralph, Edward's French nephew, is better placed still - but the exiled Aedward' s position remains potentially irrefutable - but everybody has forgotten him and he lives in Hungary. Then, there's the Godwin boys, brothers in law to the king through their sister Edith, the Queen - who hasn't produced an heir - why? Oh, and various and sundry Scandinavian kings and nobles maintain an interest through Cnut (deceased).
I said it was complicated but fear not - all shall be revealed. As the 'skald', our unashamedly omniscient narrator, says, 'keep their wits about you'.

I've started two identically worded threads on 'Forum' - regarding advice and the changing of books and whether our changed book can remain truly 'ours'.
one on general writing site;
http://www.authonomy.com/Forum/Posts.aspx?threadId=7456

one on historical fiction site;
http://www.authonomy.com/Forum/Posts.aspx?threadId=7457

SORRY - links don't work here. Please see above

An excellent, intriguing beginning but I was a little confused at the start. Would you consider a little more placing? Where's William? & Why is Eustache suddenly centre? Or what's happening? or maybe I should go to bed!
Good action & feeling of tension. Good luck with it.

That's very kind and kind'a interesting, mechanical: thanks. I and others felt that the original ( the several 'original') first chapters were too full of back story and scene setting. So, I don't know .. ? My intention was initially just to write a story, set teasers but answer most of them fairly quickly and set another, and answer that .. ditto, ditto .. There ARE some novel-long puzzles, and one or two aren't answered, though the clues are laid down with a trowel instead - so there really shouldn't be any confusion - just a slight suspicion of possible doubt. Just going to have a look at yours.

Dear David,
I have read your chapters with interest and delight at your feel for the people and period and will certainly finish the loaded work. 'Show do not tell ' is an excellent maxim and one which you follow to the tenth degree. However I for one could do with a little more back history and scene setting in order that I can relate to the events you cover, well done , looking forward to more of the same.

Thank you, Margaret, I'm delighted by your interest. I'm running over it all, before re- posting - but it's only the odd word and the removal of lots of commas - so the content won't change - no one will need to read the beginning again.

Hi David,
I'm completely gripped by this The opening is tricky , but as it is in italics I didn't worry that I didn't know what it was about, and assume that I will find out at a later stage. Have read first two chapters and will put this on my watchlist and will come back asap to read more. The period tone seems very natural - although I'm not an expert, but there definitely isn't a 'pastiche' feel to this. Looking forward to reading more.

Margaret (Munro's Choice - set in 16th century Scotland)

Hello, Richard; hello, Billy. Thanks for your interest - I was very much hoping that BattleStone would 'ring a bell' with some people. Most grateful that you let me know.

Hi fellow historian, I like your style and the history is obviously researched. On the shelf, will read on.

I could see myself sitting and reading this as a book. There just seems to be a balance to the writing style you employ in this making it easy to get lost in that brutal bygone era.

Hello Garalt. Many thanks. I understand what you've said, and I've made some quick adjustments with the red pen and reloaded. I'll look again at it later - I've got a pressing deadline involving this elsewhere at the moment. The opening has rarely been very well received and I reckon you've spotlighted the reason. Thanks again.

Hello David, I'm Bookshelving you. I've only got time to read Chapter one.

It is very well introduced but it has made the same mistake that I made in the Fifth Kingdom by opening a chapter on an internal monologue. I did that in Chapter 6 - The Emperor. It was pointed out to me and I took the hint. I'll keep reading but if even the first two pages could be written in the third person, without the internal thoughts, you have created a mystery and aura around Godwinson.
It is tempting to info dump to set the scene, and internal monologue does this very well however it is also very tricky to read cold. I just want the hand reaching for the sword seen from without, leaving you to guess the motivations and thoughts of the character. After that let fly. (Just a thought)

Now for the good bits:
Dialogue - top notch colloquialisms.
Writing style - perfectly adapted to the subject.
Detail - I love the internal dialogue's confident sense of era and place.

I look forward to reading more.

1. Wayhey !!! Excellent Pitch !! Goes on the watchlist for a read this evening.

Hello Howard: I've put some more up. 'First Fleet's doing deservedly well - great stuff.

Hey Jo! Your interest and comments are appreciated. I hear what you're saying. Thanks. David.

Hello Howard, more to come soon. I've got this and another project on simultaneously, so it's a bit like juggling. Glad you're enjoying it. Thanks for telling me: it's very much appreciated.

I've only read the beginning of this - no more time now - and would agree that it's overwritten. Taking the scissors to your adverbs would help. But you have a great story - good to see a neglected period of history given the dignity it deserves. One thought - the opening seems to bear no relation to your pitch - I had to flick back to see where the story might be heading. Any way you can plunge in with something related directly to your blurb? Just a thought.

Hi David. I have enjoyed the first five chapters. When do you expect to add more please?

Thanks Howard, I was hoping somebody would say something like that. I can't describe that 'feeling', I get when I read a good story .. yarn .. tale .. whatever we call it. But, I know it stems from just that .. STORY. I've started 'First Fleet' - got that feeling.

Interested in the discussion here with NaomiM, and I can recognise some of the points made in a number of other books. As a reader, I have a 'good feeling' of a solid and well-written piece of story telling. Is that not what we all look for? I do, and did with BattleStone. Good luck with it, I suspect it will do very well. MHM

Thank you, David, for commenting on Scratch. Much appreciated. Cheers, Danny.

I have never been in favour of prologues in published books as I feel they rarely work unless markedly different from the rest of the prose. If they have to be there, I recommend keeping them short. Since you have used it as your opening chapter, I wonder if you are expecting too much of it.
With regard to "I don't want any reader to make Boulogne their friend", lol, maybe I should rephrase my analogy. Maybe it should be emphasis, or relate to, or simply understand - ok, so those words still don't fit for this character, but the opening chapter should introduce the reader to your main character, not his main adversary, or the main antagonist. If Boulogne is not your main character, then he should be left until later - this is partly why I suggest you maybe expecting too much of this opening chapter, if it diverts the reader's attention from the main story for the sake of a bit of scene setting.
I've had time to look at the other pages and see if there is a better starting point, and probably chapter 2 is as good as any. But after looking through the rest of it I am still at a loss to know who the main character is in the book. I could hazard a guess it is Harold, but there are so many names and povs, it is difficult to tell. The prose, however, does settle down to a more readable style. :)

Thanks preceltic. That's what I wanted.

Hello preceltic; yes, it hasn't been overdone, yet it's such an important date for England - and Ireland, Scotland, Wales and France, before, during and after .. for a long time after. 'A long time after' is good for me - more books - not so good for the ordinary people of those countries - in fact, frequently awful.

Hi Naomi, many thanks for your comments and for troubling to write so comprehensively. I've considered what you say, understand what you're saying and taken it on board.
The first chapter used to be called 'prologue', until I decided that header was a bit crass. But that's what it's supposed to be: not an introduction of protagonists [ several of the characters die within a few pages ] but rather to give examples of the nature of the times and the type of ruthless opponents, Harold is going to face. I don't want any reader to make Boulogne their friend. Also people like him make it impossible for Harold to follow his dream and quit his state responsibilities. They have a great bearing on the plot, but Boulogne is just a caricature, an amalgam of the worst, but not himself the most dangerous.
Re: inconsistent pov's - the pov is that of an all-knowing, all-seeing storyteller, addressing a sympathetic, anti-Norman audience after the Conquest. Later, characters' differing points of view are separated more but their thoughts and words are still relayed through the skáld. It's an easy get out, but I trade on ambiguities in recorded history, so I need a strong voice who must be believed. If my reader is left wondering and wandering too much, we'll be floating around lost in the mists of time, while things get even more ambiguous than before. It's dogmatic, but necessary. Similarly, there are only a few book-long mysteries. Questions are raised for the reader but generally answered fairly quickly, by which time a new one has popped up. It's a complicated story, told fairly simply.
I need the 'prologue' to set the scene ( it used to be in the middle of what is now chapter 2), but I wanted a reader to be up to speed, by the time I introduced the main characters properly and started interlocking the layers. But I didn't want to dwell on it, so there's a lot of 'tell' from the 'storyteller.'
Regarding turgid prose: apart from the first word I think of always being a long one, I was attempting to give an impression of the skáld as an erudite, articulate person, who should be believed. I was over-hamming, I think.

However, first impressions are crucial. There are 'rules'. Maybe - probably - I'll not get away with bending them.

...release it from the weight of the prose, I mean. Remember 'less is more': you don't need to shoehorn in the backstory. Allow the reader to do half the work - let their imagination fill in the gaps. Don't try to lead them by the nose with too much tell.
Sorry, I know I'm badgering you now. I only do that when I like a story and think it has definite potential.

Hi, David. Followed you over from MyT.
Now I’m going to give my first impressions of the first page. This is purely my opinion and may or may not be of any help to you, but there are three things I’d like to tackle. Firstly the prose is overwritten making it dense. Reading it is like wading through treacle. You need to relax into it and use the first word that comes to mind, not search for more complex words that encompass too much meaning. You could boil that down to ‘don’t use long words when a short one will do’, but that doesn’t really explain the problem. Lets take, for example: “but he implied that his martial prowess had contributed not a little to this apparently divine intervention” – for a start I read ‘martial prowess’ as ‘marital prowess’, and I’m sure you did not mean to include a pun in this section. If you did, then it was lost in the prose. ‘Implied, contributed, apparently, divine, intervention’ – all words that make the reader pause for a fraction of a second to double check their mental thesaurus, and all those fractions of a second add up. That is what I mean by ‘reading it is like wading thorough treacle’.
The second thing is there is no consistent pov. You have used authorial pov to slip in backstory for each character – fine, I won’t argue with that – but then you also have the pov of each character in the same scene. If you look at Terry Pratchett’s novels, you will see that although he uses authorial pov and multiple povs, he is careful to keep each of the characters’ povs separate, in separate scenes that are separated by a space. Without a consistent pov, within each scene the reader’s mind wanders as there is too much to take in. It’s like walking into a party and being introduced to everyone, with the host adding little snippets of gossip for each of them – how much of that are you going to remember? Which of those people are now your friend? None of them. In the first page of a novel you are aiming to have the reader make friends with your main character, so lead him straight there and leave them to get to know each other.
Thirdly, you have blocks of ‘tell’. Now I’m not a ‘show-don’t-tell’ person. I think that tell has it’s place just as much as a show, but I too have fallen into the trap of trying to get the story going by putting in plot summaries – such as the one starting ‘When Eustache caught up with his men…’ This sounds like it could make an interesting scene if written as a show, but as a tell it falls flat. It has been used as shorthand to tell the reader this character is a ‘reserved hero’ Cut it out or rewrite it as a show and let the reader make up their own minds about your characters.
I think you have an interesting plot, you just need to release it.
Good luck with it.

No I didn't? Well not on purpose.

Anyway, Greetings Everybody. Those I recognize, those I should but haven't yet, and those I look forward to meeting.

Hello.