Conditioned Response

November, 2011 -

I've deleted the opening chapters since the final edits are altering their content substantially (in a good way!) As a result the book has (a) become private and (b) lost all shelves and watch lists.If you had previously placed the book on a shelf or watch list, my apologies but you'll have to do that again once the book is made public again. (now public in April, 2012, as the "on sale" release date approaches!)

I've uploaded the first 25% or so and you can reshelve this if you like. Obviously, if I'm selling it for money , I'm no longer taking critiques but I am always interested in reviews. (grin) Please visit Smashwords, Amazon (in your country) or best of all, GOODREADS to leave me a review. I would love to see the book shelved on TBR shelves at Goodreads. You can find it here: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13598337-conditioned-response

The book will be available for purchase in April, 2012.

Thank you to everyone who contributed feedback here on Authonomy from July through November of 2011. An author is NOTHING without readers. Thank you for collaborating with me, my readers!

-Friday
@phoenicianbooks
http://about.me/FridayBaldwin

Joshua, thanks for finding time to get back here. I know your time's in high demand! I suspect you only got as far as the first section where (personally) I think it's still dragging on interminably. It's all good stuff but it could DEFINITELY be faster-paced. Dialog, scenes, everything.

I don't know what to say about the character count except NO definitely cannot "combine" characters (LOL) that's hilarious to even think about, to be honest. I mean could you imagine combining people in real life? *shakes head* NO can do, sorry, and the characters aren't necessarily "better explained" in the first book so much as many (not all) are also present in the first book. There are actually MORE charcters in the first book who are gone (dead) in this book. A few of them who survived the first book come back later in this book and a couple of people die before this book's all said and done.

The fact is this series (as opposed to "book") is a pretty complicated set of story arcs that all kind of interweave and work together. In my edits, I've been slicing and dicing them all together in order to make a "book sized "piece I can publish but there's a LOT going on.

I am totally flattered by the harkening back to a Ray Bradbury story but ashamed (as a SciFi fan) to have to admit I have only read ONE Bradbury story (Martian Chronicles) and actually liked the Rock Hudson movie better so I never read another Bradbury story. Might have to check some of his stuff out now that I'm old and know better than to be so judgmental (my 15-20 yr old self couldn't be tolerant for more than 5 min) The whole cloning and machine-turned-man threads are both modeled after Aldus Huxley's BRAVE NEW WORLD and Asimov's Robot books (before and including Foundation which I've read about 20 times) There was one Asimov robot story in particular that spawned the birth of Charlie idea, I think. I forget what it was called. A planet of hermaphradites and a robot that is turned off because its owner is in love with it or some such. I have only the vaguest recollection now, but I loved the story back in the 80s and wrote one of my own in response.

Charlie is in the next 2 books and KEY to the end of the series. The fact he looks exactly like Kyree is critical to the series arcs :)

I really appreciate that you took the time to give me feedback (despite it being a sad confirmation that I am definitely still in need of editing for pacing through the first 1/3 probably--until the chapter titled "the mad scientist" I'll bet, right?) After that early section, the plot twists start hitting BAM BAM BAM one right after another. I had to wait to introduce yet another key character (Joshua Andrew Caine) who is a mystery unto himself (giggle) and whose story plays out in the next 2-3 books along with Charlie's. I'm tempted to hold up the Dec 31st release unless/until I get the pacing sped up but we shall see.

Continued reading today. Some of your tags are misused. When referring to speech such as, "'Did something happen?' He added conversationally," the tag is still part of the sentence so "he" should be lowercased. This occurs throughout the manuscript.

I'm intrigued by Charlie, especially, "Something had happened and his kind--thinking machines--were illegal now..." I love the fact he's being modeled after Kyree. Eerie. Reminds me a bit of a Ray Bradbury story I've read.

Great polish to this piece. It reads smoothly and is tightly written. Definitely publishable quality.

I think I may have mentioned this before, but there are lot of characters to keep track of. I know this is a sequel, so reading the first book will have made following this one easier. Plus, a lot of characters isn't necessarily a bad thing (look at the popularity of A Game of Thrones), but you might consider if combining characters is a possibility.

Great dialogue. Authentic, gripping. At times I wonder if a few of the conversations go on a little too long, but other than that, no complaints.

Love the world you've created. It's taking shape nicely with very little description. Simply through the events of the story, it's coming together quite nicely.

Along with the dialogue, I feel like some of your scenes and chapters are a bit longer than necessary. This, of course, may just come down to personal preference.

Worshipping Shayla. Very interesting.

I actually disagree with another user's comments. I'm having no problem following this even though I haven't read the first book. You do a great job of making this stand alone. Sure, reading the first would add perspective, but I'm still enjoying the read.

The plot continues to thicken. This is well done, and I look forward to seeing it in print.

Hey Rik,

Thanks for taking a look AND giving me a critique. I appreciate the flattery but even more so, I really appreciate the feedback on the two points you made--the sense you're jumping into the middle of the story and the opening in the Council Session not grabbing you.

I've been pondering the opening. Since Shayla's transformation in this book is the "theme" of the book, the journey of this one (of MANY) characters in the series from what she has "become" here in the world Outside, with the Council influence, to what she was before (a Phoenician, nothing more, nothing less) is pretty much the point iof this book. Well, there's a plot, several actually, but the character message is Shayla's journey for this book, just as the previous book (not yet written! I keep saying that *haha*) will have been (is that the right future imperfect phrasing?) the journey Raif takes from his rebellion against Dramond to his partnership with Shayla.

Anyway, I've been mulling the opening of the book and trying to decide what'll feel right or better to me but I did choose the Council Session for a reason. I'll keep trying to find something (else) comparable that feels more "exciting" though. We shall see.

Hi, Friday. I'm returning the crit you offered on my book ages back. Sorry it's taken so long.

I've only read the first chapter. Even so, I can safely say that you need no advice from me on how to write. The read is very smooth: the scenes are constructed economy, the initial plots are established with efficiency, and the characters of Shayla and Raif are deftly drawn.

My big issue with the book is that I come to it without having read the first volume. As a continuation of the first book I can only assume it works as you intended, but as a reader who hasn't encountered these characters, or this planet and its civilisations, I struggled to engage with the text.

Given my limited knowledge of what has gone before, it's difficult to offer practical feedback. I did worry that you choose to start the book in the middle of (what is effectively) a committee meeting. I have to admit that I engaged more with Raif's plight than I did with Shayla's political shenanigans.

I'm sorry I can't offer you more useful feedback. Best wishes with taking this book (and series) forward to publication.

Rik.

Thanks, Pokemaster for the comments on "5: the mad scientist." Jorle was one of the first characters I made up back in the 1980s--but I'm not sure how to take it that you half-doubt I wrote this *LOL*

The idea that Shayla could/would kill anyone has to always be an undercurrent in this story. She'll kills someone at some point so I recall I started planting the idea she could but chooses NOT to way, way back in Ch 1. She's supposed to still come off as a total passivist, though. Does she? I hope so. It's a fine line to balance.

Although Joshua is totally blond (compared to Raif's auburn/strawberry blond and Brennan's auburn/chestnut roan red hair) I'm not sure that's his definining characteristic LOL I'm glad the beard chewing didn't bug you the way it did SanityEludesMe though :) It's one of those annoying habits some guys who grow beards have and I happened to have known a few who did it...so Joshua does it. I think his eyes--all THREE of them have the same eyes--are the defining characteristic.

The romantic interlude at the end is foreshadowing, yes, definitely, and I'll have to let you keep reading to see how that ends up working for Raif & Shayla *LOL*

I really enjoyed reading chapter 5. Jorle is a great character, I almost have some difficulty in believing that you came up with this. Then again I was pleasantly surprised at how well developed a character he was. Even though he has never appeared before I can almost imagine him in my mind's eye and that is what I love about reading. I feel that the best books must take you on a journey and I have to be able to visualize what is going on. I love the way you clearly define Jorle's role and I can compare him to some people I know that are more valuable to me alive and in my life than dead and gone. I also enjoyed the way Joshua comes to the private residence as a Class One and that his most defining character is his blond hair. I also liked the exchange at the end, while I believe Shayla would kill them if necessary, I don't think it will come to that. The romantic interlude shows that something has happened before to possibly preclude this outcome and I like that potential for foreshadowing if that was your purpose or maybe I am just reading too much into it?

I think that a little more explanation of the Phoenician characteristics and differences are in order somewhat earlier in the book. Well written and in need of more chapters uploaded.

My impression, after the seven chapters is that this reads like an A.E.Van Vogt story. RT

Thanks, Raymond, for the feedback. Part of me feels more about the Phoenician world would be "good" but the overall series has a meta-arc and in THIS book, we're mostly focused on the World Council (with the Phoenicians and the Community both falling slightly into the background) I'm fairly sure in the chapters uploaded as of this second that you have not read anything about the Community yet. There are 3 cultures in this series--and the intersection of them is pretty much the backbone of the series -- personified in Shayla, eventually.

I noted in an earlier comment that I have this writing style/habit of telling the reader something, assuming they know, and then LATER explaining it. I never even noticed that I do this until I started editing this book, but apparently, I've done it in the last 3 books I've written--and I've written well over a dozen, closer to 20, in the 40+ years I've been writing. It's apparently my personal "style" of storytelling. I like it. Some people won't. Some people will actually hate it. That's okay. There are a bazillion books out there. I don't need every last human on Earth (haha) to read and/or like my book. I'm okay with dozens of people not liking it, though my artist's heart wants everyone to love my unique + special snowflake, of course.

Thank you for taking the time to read so much--and for wanting more chapters! Today I have a few hours off my day job and hope to upload several more chapters. I'm doing a last read-through before moving on. I have about 80% of the book through first edits now. Gotta do second edits then finish the last 20% and I might just make the end-of-year release date after all!

-Friday

I think that a little more explanation of the Phoenician characteristics and differences are in order somewhat earlier in the book. Well written and in need of more chapters uploaded.

My impression, after the seven chapters is that this reads like an A.E.Van Vogt story. RT

Combining the last 2 replies here SanityEludesMe:

Ch 7- I was initially a little bothered that Shayla "relieved her stress" with someone other than Raif, but I am glad to see that she is feeling a bit guilty for that and planning to fix that in the future.

Shayla's a bit of a vixen hussy, despite all of her protestations. In that sense, she and Julia Travis had something in common--right up until Shayla fell in love with Raif while he was still with Julia. The one thing no one (including you) has noticed yet is that while Raif's been Adjusted and is having all these weird feelings for Shayla, feelings out of the blue and off the scale that is, note that Shayla hasn't been influenced externally. Everything she's feeling is actually how she feels. I have her mention it a few times, hoping it'll register but the Raif/Shayla relationship, after 13 yrs together, is pretty LOL funny at times normally (bickering like an old married couple while also reading each other's minds, so to speak) I won't ask anymore if this reads remotely like a romance novel because I'm sure at this stage of the book (you're about 1/3 into the plotline though more than that in word count) there's no way this is going to be a HEA for Raif and Shayla. There are way too many other people and things going on. Or at least, I hope it's obvious this is NOT a romance novel. I definitely get non-romance readers asking me that and it was this book that spurred someone to say I "do" or at least "should" write romance. This is not romance. Romance readers would KILL me if I tried to pass this off as romance. By the end of the book you'll know why.

{QUOTE]I think Caine's information and glimpses into his past are very well placed here. I was able to easily follow everything and left with a few questions...
I love that Charlie is calling the shots here. I have a feeling something bad is going to happen with him. I hope it doesn't, but I have that feeling.

I'm glad you felt I explained most everything (and that you got a good solid sense of foreboding from the Charlie plotline developing) but I'm curious what questions were left unanswered regarding Caine. A lot of things will be left unanswered (for a later book--Charlie and Joshua both get more spotlight time in the later books) but you should feel by now (ch 7 and 7a) that you understand who he is and what he's after. Actually Ch 7a is the first Joshua POV chapter (new material I wrote specifically to be ABLE to put it into Joshua's POV) so maybe it's unclear until you read on?

Ch7a - Not much else to add here. I'm just glad we're getting to know more and more about Caine, and now this William guy is introduced. I'm enjoying this very much! :-)

I need to edit the William guy's introduction *grin* He has very "Phoenician like" characteristics, did you notice?

SanityEludesMe:

Ch6 – The thought just struck me. The Proctors are basically slaves--created, bought, and sold.

YES!!!!!! Finally someone "got" it. I've had earlier readers (of the 2005 edits) who immediately realized this and suggested I tone down the slavery message a bit so I poured more of it into the Book 1 outline (the book I haven't written yet) but I can't actually lose that FACT in this book! Thank you for saying it actually does come through. I keep trying to refer to them as property, as some "thing" that whose contract is bought and sold on the open market. In Ch 3 I introduced Raif's alter ego of Richard Gaultier as "rich enough to buy his own contract" but maybe I need to go back to saying "to buy HIMSELF" to really drive it in. I'll mull that one over.

For some reason Caine’s facial hair bothers me…haha…

Probably b/c I'm not enjoying it as much now as I did my whole life when I kept picturing this guy. I made this character up when I was very very young. I won't tell you how old exactly since you're a mum and I was a child and it's a little creepy to my adult self that my child self was imagining grown men in the roles of romantic heroes but my child self had a kind of scary imagination at times. I'm not sure why his beard is such a fixation but oddly, it bugged me this reading, too. I find it laughable that you noticed it. You're really tuned into my mindset when I'm writing--or it's really coming through in my words somehow. That's actually not good, for the author to be "heard/seen/felt" behind the words but you're getting my intent more than me so I'll leave it alone.

Finally, we get to hear from Caine and more about Raif’s past!

Yeah, this is the problem with series writing, getting histories reproduced without writing whole books within books to do it. Raif's Story (book 1, outlined but not written) is a very circular one. You can see why I'm tackling this book first probably.

I was going to note the dark hair/eye vs. light hair/eye traits before I read the paragraph where you mention the significance :-)!
Charlie seems rather snippy and almost deceptive here.
I’m glad Shayla is finally releasing some stress!!!
This chapter went much more smoothly for me. It was clearer and more entertaining than the last one.

The Phoenicians--by comparison to the humans--are a tiny little population segment. Only 10,000 people with a fractional population growth rate. Their "breeding habits" are a mysterious question only answered in the very last book of the series *muahahaha*

I liked this chapter a lot, too. Jorle is hilarious. He definitely adds some much-needed comic relief!

Hi again, SanityEludesMe, wow, you really did catch up all in one night! Oops, I need to get more uploaded now :)

Ch5 - I noticed one of the other commenters mentioned the chapter length. I also think they can be a bit long...but then again, I see how everything fits together, so what does it really matter? It's all one book in the long run!
I was distracted a lot (by my children!) while reading this one, so... For some reason I thought Shayla didn't know Raif was Richard. Also, as we're moving into meeting Caine, I'm getting a bit confused. Maybe it is just me not giving it 100% of my attention, but the whole bit about him looking like Raif and Brennan is hard for me to grasp at the moment. Perhaps it will all clear up in the following chapters........

I know this chapter focuses more on introducing Jorle but I thought it was clear on how Caine is the progenitor of the two Proctors. There -is- actually a reason I keep stressing the relationship of the three men. I definitely want it to be NOT a surprise when it is finally the turning point of a decision (or several decisions that several characters make). The relationship of the three of them, is basically father, son, grandson but I'm calling them progenitor, Heir and Heir ;-) In the edits I'm working on "right now" actually, I'm having Brennan meet and speak with Caine alone much sooner than he did in earlier versions. I agree Brennan needs more stage time and the relationship of the 3 men needs more highlighting, so I'm adding it in already but I thought I'd established them as related at least? Hopefully it was your own progeny distracting you *hee hee*

Ch7a - Not much else to add here. I'm just glad we're getting to know more and more about Caine, and now this William guy is introduced. I'm enjoying this very much! :-)

Ch 7- I was initially a little bothered that Shayla "relieved her stress" with someone other than Raif, but I am glad to see that she is feeling a bit guilty for that and planning to fix that in the future.
I think Caine's information and glimpses into his past are very well placed here. I was able to easily follow everything and left with a few questions...
I love that Charlie is calling the shots here. I have a feeling something bad is going to happen with him. I hope it doesn't, but I have that feeling.

Ch6 – The thought just struck me. The Proctors are basically slaves--created, bought, and sold. But it is so normal for their society. It is just the way it is, and obviously, most of the time, they aren’t abused or anything.
For some reason Caine’s facial hair bothers me…haha…
Finally, we get to hear from Caine and more about Raif’s past!
I was going to note the dark hair/eye vs. light hair/eye traits before I read the paragraph where you mention the significance :-)!
Charlie seems rather snippy and almost deceptive here.
I’m glad Shayla is finally releasing some stress!!!
This chapter went much more smoothly for me. It was clearer and more entertaining than the last one.

Ch5 - I noticed one of the other commenters mentioned the chapter length. I also think they can be a bit long...but then again, I see how everything fits together, so what does it really matter? It's all one book in the long run!
I was distracted a lot (by my children!) while reading this one, so... For some reason I thought Shayla didn't know Raif was Richard. Also, as we're moving into meeting Caine, I'm getting a bit confused. Maybe it is just me not giving it 100% of my attention, but the whole bit about him looking like Raif and Brennan is hard for me to grasp at the moment. Perhaps it will all clear up in the following chapters........

Ch4a - And the plot thickens... :-) At this point I'm just dying to really "meet" Brennan! Of course, there's also the addition of Citizen Caine (ha!). I'm a little confused, but I am sure things are going to clear up soon... :-)
I love how Julia is pretty much everything Shayla is not. Julia openly flirts with Raif (and everyone else apparently). Shayla is far more reserved, citing her Phoenician mannerisms/powers as her excuse. They make a great contrast...

Thanks, SanityEludesMe, for the 4a feedback. It's funny how you're the first one to mention Julia. She plays a much bigger part in the first book (which I haven't yet finished writing) so she's fully formed in my mind. She and Raif have an amazing 7-year "itch" (haha) Oh and referring to Joshua as "Citizen Caine" was a very special treat indeed. Chuckle everytime I have to write it. I also like how you are the first to pick up on the fact you don't actually "know" Brenann and yet....he's always there, right from Ch 1. In the first revs back in 2005, I had complaints about introducing him "so late in the book" and I thought, "How is Ch 1 late?" but he's just so different than Raif--despite being his clone--he kind of fades into the background. Everytime I give more insight into Brennan, I try to do it in a way that contrasts him to Raif, that shows how despite their being intellectually identical and having had similar "training" the fact they lived different lives formed their different personalities - you know, nature versus nurture, illustrated in the extreme.

Fair warning, the plot CONTINUES to thicken right up until "the trigger" (the last bit of Ch "12") which is going to be at the 75-80% mark of the book. After that climax, then the plot will stop "thickening" and start resolving.

Ch4a - And the plot thickens... :-) At this point I'm just dying to really "meet" Brennan! Of course, there's also the addition of Citizen Caine (ha!). I'm a little confused, but I am sure things are going to clear up soon... :-)
I love how Julia is pretty much everything Shayla is not. Julia openly flirts with Raif (and everyone else apparently). Shayla is far more reserved, citing her Phoenician mannerisms/powers as her excuse. They make a great contrast...

Y'know F, you have the libido of a fifteen year old boy. Seriously. Perhaps more cold showers are needed?

You know, H, I've been informed (by the Quilly Mammoth) that I am actually a gay man trapped in a woman's body. I have no retort for that. It could well be true! I only take cold showers in midsummer. I'm just a smelly vixen hussy the rest of the year!

Reading up to Chapter 11 was an interesting ride. There seemed to be a bit of a change of style or... Perhaps a change of flavour after chapter 1 or 2. I was expecting something of a different story by that point.

Okay, so this is going to confuse me. I haven't uploaded 11 chapters but you're going by the number Authonomy puts on the stuff? So Ch 8 is numbered 11? *eep* I'm going to keep referring to the ACTUAL chapters, not the numbering Authonomy puts on them. Just look at the beginning of the "chapter" screen for the REAL number.

More to the point, you're the first one to comment on the change in "voice" or "authorial voice" from the early chapters to the later ones. From around Ch 3 on is where the work underwent serious edits so yeah, I'm sorry to say I probably did change the voice a bit. DAMNIT. I didn't want to change voice so much as plotting but I was apparently unable to recapture the voice I used in 2005 for the original edits of Ch's 1-2 (I'm referring to the actual chapters, again, not Autho numbers) None of this is how the book "sounded" in the 1980s when I first drafted it. Thank gawwwwwwd!! *LOL*

Not a complaint, I really like the current shape, but it came as a bit of a surprise.

Yeah, it's been a bit of a surprise--and a good one!--for me, too. I don't know where all the great plotting twists and turns have come from but I am LOVING getting to READ this book, never mind the rush of writing it! I'll definitely have to look at the "voice shift" though when I make my second pass for pacing edits. I want to finish the plotting edits first then address style, voice, pacing, plodding.....

The trickling and teasing out of details was interesting.

In an earlier comment (I think replying to Pokemaster) I did note that I was starting to realize that this was an actual style of mine--as a writer, across genres--as I have done this now in four separate books which cover 3 separate genres. It a weird habit I have of stating something by reference, as though you already know and THEN filling you in. I'm thrown by it myself, as a reader of my own work, but I do get that I'm doing it as a writer...and I get why...and I don't think I want to force myself to change. It's definitely a "trademark style" and I think I do it well. It's going to be something people either love or hate.

Around about chapters 5 and 6

which means Authonomy numbers right? So in REALITY you mean around Chapters 4 or the new "4a" ? The two long behemoth chapters that are in serious need of additional edits? Those two?

I found myself wondering if I'd missed a note about this being the second book in the series. I don't mind that and have often found myself picking up stories from a starting point other than the beginning but it puzzled me for a while. Then you started filling in the holes and I realised it was more of a writing ploy than an actual absence of data.

Yes, you did miss a note about this being Book 2 - the note from me in private email when I first asked you to come read *grin* Oh and the note on the blurb for the book at the top of this page. And um, oh yeah, the Facebook Page where I talk about this being Book 2. Oh and don't forget all the comments from Allan/TesterScot about wanting to read Book 1 and my responses insisting Book 1 hasn't been written yet. This new Book 2 used to BE Book 1. But I don't suppose it matters if you missed those notes so long as you read the chapters *hee hee* It's definitely not quite up to LMB's par of series writing but similar (or I hope it is)

I'm liking it F. But yeah, you really need more cold showers.

But where would be the FUN in that??? Hey, do NOT forget the rules of my SciFi writing:
1. if you have sex, then you die
2. if you have great sex, then you die horribly
3. if you have mind-blowing sex, then you implode

And you know, demo man Rainey over there has been somewhat impatiently waiting for his turn to come back 'round so he may just have to influence my edits of The Big Sex Scene. You know one's *cough* coming, right? :) Yeah, it's in Ch 12. Who'd a thunk?

Y'know F, you have the libido of a fifteen year old boy. Seriously. Perhaps more cold showers are needed? Reading up to Chapter 11 was an interesting ride. There seemed to be a bit of a change of style or... Perhaps a change of flavour after chapter 1 or 2. I was expecting something of a different story by that point. Not a complaint, I really like the current shape, but it came as a bit of a surprise. The trickling and teasing out of details was interesting. Around about chapters 5 and 6 I found myself wondering if I'd missed a note about this being the second book in the series. I don't mind that and have often found myself picking up stories from a starting point other than the beginning but it puzzled me for a while. Then you started filling in the holes and I realised it was more of a writing ploy than an actual absence of data.
I'm liking it F. But yeah, you really need more cold showers.

Marjorie,
I checked out your book CONDITIONED RESPONSE. Looked good. Good luck and happy writing.
Dwain-Thomas
If you could check out my novel, DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS, your help will be appreciated.

Hi Dwain-Thomas, Thanks so much for taking the time to have a look at my chapters. I'm assuming you really did and didn't just back the book so you could come comment and ask me to back yours? I am definitely NOT doing reciprocal reads or *ANY* shelves. NO shelves, NO way, NO how, Just noooooo. I did check your profile before coming to see your comment and it definitely appears from what I've seen on your message board and book page that you are "campaigning" for shelf exchanges.

I'm sorry if you thought that backing my book would get you a reciprocation. I do realize that a large number of Authonomy members "do business" that way. I'm just NOT one of them.

-Friday

Marjorie,

I checked out your book CONDITIONED RESPONSE. Looked good. Good luck and happy writing.

Dwain-Thomas

If you could check out my novel, DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS, your help will be appreciated.

Other than a few (well, several) typos and missing articles (a, an, the...) and such, a very good overall read. Now, where's the rest of it? [grin] Just kidding, Friday, you know me... but I have this [twitch] addiction that now has another source [twitch, twitch] for fixes...

*blush* I am actually now officially "reader crack" ??? Wow!! I'm flattered, Tom! I'm sorry about the typos. I'm editing the plot and not really proofing at this stage (yet) but thanks for noting I need to do a solid check for that crap. I hate that stuff in others' work. You and I "crossed in the ether" as I just left you a message on your profile here.

The only part I think I'll "not like" - for some values of "not" - is that the publishing order won't be the chronological one. Which isn't a complaint, since more than one other author has also written that way. Keep up the good work.

Thank you. I haven't written Book 1 yet. It was actually some of the stuff Lois said to me in 2005 that made me think of even WRITING Book 1. The other books in the series (4 or 5 depending on how you count 'em) are done. I wrote them back in the 1980s. It's kind of amazing to me that I imagined some of these things. Touchscreens weren't even working on high end HP mfg automation stations yet and minority report style ionized air images were totally new to me at the time. I dunno, I didn't read every SF book in the 60s and 70s. Maybe SOMEONE mentioned them. I know that NO ONE mentioned the viagara (Conistan) style stuff and all of the other drugs I fabricated for this series. Plus the delivery system of a patch was not yet out there (this was prior to nicotine and/or birth control patches which both came out in the 90s) so I did actually get ahead of the game. If only I'd published back then. But I was young, stupid and full of myself. These are far better books now that I'm willing and able to hear feedback and use it to better the books.

You didn't comment on any of the plotting, specifically. Did you read all the way through to Ch 8 (the last one uploaded as of when I write this)? That last chapter was really raw still. Ch 7a and 8 both are raw...but good 'uns! OMG the plot twists I've come up with are blowing MY mind!!

Thanks for spending the time reading and for shelving. More coming soon! Promise :)

Other than a few (well, several) typos and missing articles (a, an, the...) and such, a very good overall read. Now, where's the rest of it? [grin] Just kidding, Friday, you know me... but I have this [twitch] addiction that now has another source [twitch, twitch] for fixes...

The only part I think I'll "not like" - for some values of "not" - is that the publishing order won't be the chronological one. Which isn't a complaint, since more than one other author has also written that way. Keep up the good work.

TesterScot, thank you!! Now THIS is what I've come to expect from you, this kind of point by point address. YOU are back, sir :)

What did you think was a "UXB" ? (had to Google that to find "unexploded bomb" + assume that was your meaning) I barely even planted any Easter Eggs, let alone UXBs though in Book 1 Raif *does* sit on a chair with a UXB and thinks nothing of it. It's keyed to Dramond's "fat little man" weight so Raif won't set it off *haha*

I'm still going to think about tightening the pacing on Raif's introspection in Ch 3 ...you're not the only one who thought it was good but at least one thought it was sluggish. If I lose even one reader, even just a little, when I could have just tightened a little and kept everyone...I am set up to fail. I don't want to fail with this book. This is my "BREAKOUT NOVEL" as they call it.

About Book 1 - I've said it before, say it again. I haven't written it yet. I started to write it (in 2005 when I got to the Bar actually and Jim cut me down for "Barf on a stick" stuff referencing Adjustments) but I haven't written it. I'm glad. I'm referencing it here and THIS book is basically setting "in stone" what Book 1 will be once I do write it. I'llprobably write it next rather than editing Book 3 + 4 right away. I'd like to have the first two books out at once and build readership before I worry about finishing the series (it's all finished though...it does actually END in fact like it's a 5 book "story")

Can't wait to hear what you think of chapters 4 and 4a!

Chapter 3 - Wow! UXB!!!
There's *so* much in this chapter that's gonna come to fruition *later*. You *evil* author, you! ::VBEDG::
I wanted to know more about Raif... I got my wish! And now I want even *more*!!!

An excellent chapter. Changes of pace (which come across *perfectly* IMO); revelations of unseen incidents (hinted at in previous chapters); background info passed to the reader in a way which is most definitely *not* a data dump!
I like the characters you've written & I'm getting to know them more with each chapter.

As ever, each of your characters has his/her own distinct 'voice'; and, as ever, they are all more than 2-dimensional. They have depth, and feelings; and you make your readers *care* what happens to them - even 'Charlie'! ::VBG::

Transitions within scenes were smooth; transitions between scenes were clear, but not abrupt. Nicely written & *very* enjoyable to read.
I can see what you mean about ramping up the tensions - sexual & otherwise.

I already had this on my bookshelf - and it's not going to move from there any time soon! - it's also now on my Watchlist; sorry, it would have been there earlier, but I didn't realise I could 'watch' and 'back' at the same time.

Love the book so far... and I want a copy of Book 1!!!!!!! Okay?

PS - More! Now!

set out with great care and skill- narrative is direct and stylish...and with effective dialogue, this is a very good book...
on my watchlist...
SIX STARS******
read SEASONS...

Wow SanityEludesMe you sure are catching up on your reading! I know Ch 4 is a behemoth and I want to trim some of that backfill but I'm glad you didn't feel it bogging you down the way I think Ch 3 did a bit. Thanks for letting me know you enjoyed it. I'm sure someone else will say it was too much infodumping :) I plan to trim it.

As to the typos, this is a first cut, but thanks for pointing those out because now I'll notice them more easily when I do my own read-through again (or I can Ctrl-F locate them and get rid of them now.) ETA: I cannot find the "Jorde" but would note that his name (laughably, as it was selected by my 17 yo self) is actually "Dr. Jorle le Jorde." LOL Cracks me up everytime I write it b/c it's such a bad name choice. I guess it suits him. "Bad taste" is Jorle all over :)

There is one nit I'm going to pick so no one else says anything. I'm going to stand firm on my Katy Gibbs School Executive Secretarial King's English training. To wit: "anyway" vs "any" and "way" is a debateble topic. There are both usages and both are, technically, grammatically correct, though according to King's English, they have separate meanings. In the vernacular of today's American (or even British English) they are the same meaning. Similarly, we have "somewhere" vs "some where" or "anyone" vs "any one." I'll often deliberately separate some of these (forex, "any single one" but in fact these are all correct.

The words that are not correct are (forex)"all together" vs "altogether" or using "alot" versus "a lot" (which literally stems from the factory term of something called "lot" *haha*) There are debates about splitting the words vs using the one-word form. I prefer the one-word form and since it is in the dictionary, that's my story and I'm gonna stick to it *g*

Back to your critique re language being offensive at times, I'm thinking it would have to be Raif's use of the F bomb and I'm glad it seems appropriate to the moment rather than salted in for shock effect. It kind of surprised me that he's sounding like that but he always has had a certain edge to him. I think it's the Alpha Male in him. In my read-through for a second pass to address pacing, I'll have to revisit it though, since it clearly caused you to have a "reader's stumble" -- that is, it broke you out of the reader's trance by making you notice it was there. That's bad.

More than any other comment, I appreciate the following most of all:

I think the chemistry between Shayla and Raif is perfect.

I'm glad. I wasn't sure. I've been changing it. Very subtle but very definite changes.

I keep worrying this whole thing is feeling too much like a romance novel (since someone called it that back in 2006) and not enough like an SF technothriller mystery sort of story. It's definitely NOT a romance novel. I absolutely will NOT fulfill the "contract with the reader" that a romance novel MUST. It's not even ChickLit as Shayla is not exactly a likeable female lead all the time. She's a very flawed character at times.

The thing is, they've got 13 years together. Day in, day out. They've spent nearly every minute together. They're as close as police partners, soldiers serving in battle or siblings--but without the incestuous taboos stopping them. He is the only Outsider who's come to the Phoenician land and met her people. She is the only Phoenician who's come to the Council world and HE integrated her into it. They are KEY to each other's lives with a dynamic that was set up by external forces (Seven Chiefs).

Added to all that, now they're being influenced by a new, external force (Adjustment by Kindi to Raif) which is changing their internal dynamic. I want them comfortable but surprised, interested in pursuing it but questioning it--in the context of their decade+ existing relationship. Plus Raif has to always see her as a Councillor at some level. He's a Proctor and literally cannot ever forget her position of Authority, despite the conflicting position of authority the Seven Chiefs put him in.

It's hard to balance all of this in the emotional content of a single sentence.

I've been carefully going over ever single interaction they have to make it fit, then change, then revert and subtly slide into something new. I think Ch 4a is still okay but the chemistry in Ch 5 and 6 has not yet been adjusted (or Adjusted by me). It's still reading with the old, staid and formal Proctor at a distance and cold, insensitive unmentionable word for Shayla :) Thanks for the feedback on their chemistry, though. It's a high bullet on my checklist of things to focus on during editing.

Ch4 - I love how you slowly give bits and pieces of answers and back stories. I did see a couple errors: when she is talking to Charlie early on, she says "anymore" when it should be "any more"... There was a word that was missing the last letter, but I can't find it to save my life now. And at one point "Jorle" is spelled "Jorde."
I think Raif is beginning to be a favorite of mine as well. I don't care for some of the language, but that's just me. It isn't overpowering the story or anything; I just personally feel that it isn't necessary either.
I think the chemistry between Shayla and Raif is perfect.

Thanks for the feedback on Ch 3 SanityEludesMe. I've been trying to figure out where else (besides the behemoth Ch 4 and 4a) I can trim down and it sure sounds like you're saying my pacing in Ch 3 could use a bit more tightening. IIRC I added new material there, all of that introspection, so it must be coming off as "info dumping" which yeah, is boring to read. I'll have to take a look at it during the second pass, when I hopefully can slash and trim with zeal :) Good feedback! Thank you again.

Ch 3 - I have to admit some of Raif's part was getting a bit dense. On the other hand, it does give the reader a better idea of what is going on in his head and how he is feeling. He is confused and weighed down with the conflicts in his mind. He needs answers but doesn't quite know how to get them at the time. From the time he attacks Luthor through his interaction with Shayla, things move much easier and are more interesting.
I'm really anxious to see what exactly Kindi has done to him and to learn more about the life he and Shayla have had together in the past.

Once again I must say that I really like the way this book is shaping up. I enjoyed it when the seemingly mysterious plan begins to come together.

Thanks Pokemaster. Did you just catch up to Ch 4 or get through 4a also? I hope you didn't stay up all night to read it all again! *haha*

There were a few typos, but I did read your disclaimer.

Yes, I'm thinking there are quite a few more that I haven't caught yet, too! Anytime I touch the text to add, subtract or change anything, though, I risk introducing new errors. Once I get to the major event in Ch 12, I'll probably sit down and do a "cover to cover" read through before moving on. I'll need the recovery time myself! I really like reading how this story is shaping up myself and I think it's kind of funny that I actually don't know EVERYTHING that's going to happen next!

This book is just getting better and better. It has also moved up quite a bit in the rankings.

And that would be due to YOU and the others who've shelved it and left it on their shelves all this time. THANK YOU. Even if I don't care about HC's Editor's Desk "race" I do get a huge kick out of seeing the numbers getting smaller and smaller everytime I come to the site to upload a new revision. That "kick" translates as my motivation to keep going, so please know that YOU (and the other half dozen who've "backed" the book and kept it on their shelf) have actually contributed positive energy to the creation of this book. See? And you thought you were just reading for free! Not true. Thank you ^_^

-Friday

Once again I must say that I really like the way this book is shaping up. I enjoyed it when the seemingly mysterious plan begins to come together. I also like that Charlie has intentionally altered a record to make someone else notice something in order to bring that something to Shayla's attention. There were a few typos, but I did read your disclaimer. This book is just getting better and better. It has also moved up quite a bit in the rankings.

Thanks for the response!
I just sent you a friend request. We might have some fun talking about Heinlein, among other things.
The first Heinlein book I read was, Stranger in a Strange Land. I read it with a couple of girlfriends in highschool and the three of us bonded over that book. Ha! Fond memories.
For years, I lived by one of Lazarus Long's quotes: "To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites; moderation is for monks". I've slowed down a bit since then...and learned the attributes of moderation.
Best regards,
Joe

I wanted to leave you a message! I love Heinlein. Read lots of his books. I especially liked Time Enough for Love.

Thanks, TesterScot. I'm glad you finally got back from the Islands to civilisation where there is reliable internet access so you could comment. I have to say, these comments are not up to your usual "snuff" but you hit the high points of the 4-point process you know I love. THANK YOU FOR THESE COMMENTS!

I also have to say, this style of writing is so much more "natural" to me than that "other book" of mine you read. This is definitely how I tell stories when I go "unfiltered" by expectations of others. It's the funniest thing, though, I've never read any of David Weber's books *grin* Yeah, I know!

Re Raif's Story, neither you nor anyone else has read the first book--I haven't written it yet!!! Well, I started, got about 7 or 8 chapters done. I'll get there. In fact, I'll probably get there next, after this one is out, because I don't want to write after I've already set the future in stone. It is set "thirteen years ago" as in the book where they meet for the first time, the book where he first "separates himself" from Dramond. Everyone hated me for not killing Dramond in that book (he needed to die in Ch 3 and I had to physically restrain Raif to prevent it) but he'll die a death of a thousand pieces in this book....at some point. You'll cheer, don't worry, it'll be fun. No exploding spaceships, but there are explosions *smirk*

I need to put in a lot more sideways deets to indicate this is NOT Earth but I'm not sure I really want to glare it. Once I finally figured out how to move the story from Earth to Not-Earth and more importantly, how to make that REALLY WORK for the meta-arc of the series (be a twist at the end of the series) I decided to make it very, very subtle, one of those things you can so easily ignore until it slaps you in the face and you think OMG, how could I not see that coming?? *hee hee* you know how I love to do that stuff.

I also need to start making a chart of non-Earth animals I keep making up. Forex, Gorthon Worms - what do they look like? Other than growing their heads right back when you cut them off, what else can they do? Why are they disliked by Shayla? Or does she just not like bugs? I have so many more bugs in mind. I HATE bugs so I can think of all kinds of awful creepy crawly things they might do. Then I stomp on them.

I should warn you and anyone else reading AS OF THURS 18-AUG more changes coming to Ch4 (parts 1+2), but nothing huge this time. I just need to insert into the conversation Raif, Shayla + Charlie have about going to Trouville Sector for the surgery, explaining why they are not going "today" and are putting it off for 24 hours. There is a reason, a few of them, but I don't explain any of that I realized in my sleep last night. I need to stop writing in my sleep! Yikes.

Also, I have not yet done a single-sitting read-through of Ch 4 specifically for typos. Won't do that until all the changes are finished so ....warning, possible typos ahead!

Chapter 2...
More intrigue, plots and 'stuff'! Tasty chapter.
Adding depth to established characters - in chapter 1 - introducing more, including an AI in training ::GRIN::
Oh this is getting *very* interesting.
With more info on the Chiefs and the Senior Councillors; Adjustments; even confirmation that this takes place on a planet that *isn't* Earth. Hints of things to come; references to things that have gone before.
Believable characters and reactions.
Definitely in the 'must read more' column!!!
Thanks, Friday.
TesterScot

Well Friday, you've done it again.
I haven't read any of the first book ::grumph:: , but in the first chapter of this second book in the series, you've already established seperate - distinct - voices for each of the characters *and* made me want to know more about them... even the ones I don't like (already)!
I'm starting to get the 'flavour' of each individual, along with hints of some we still have to meet (in this book).

I think it's a good intro to an existing story, without a 'download' of exposition. Fine, it's mostly political manouevering throughout the chapter; but the background - and science-fictional basis - comes through. Way to pull a 'David Weber', Friday!!!!!
Nicely done! Now, onto Chapter 2!!!!
TesterScot

Thanks, "He who imagines real people exist." for taking a look. It sounds as though you didn't get past the first screen or two, and for that, I'm sorry to hear it. It also sounds like you prefer fanfic which honestly, I find to be so awful as to be skin-crawling and pointless, not to mention it's pretty badly-written, more often than not. Different strokes for different folks. Not everyone is going to like a technothriller.

As to my choice of opening, not all scifi books start with an exploding spaceship. Not all thrillers start with a dead body. I suppose not all crappy classics start with a dark and stormy night but one of these days, I shall write a scifi thriller that starts with a dark and stormy night....and a dead body...on a space ship that's about to explode! Hey, sounds like a great book, huh?

In all seriousness, thank you for taking the time to write me a comment. I appreciate your effort.

I am afraid this failed to capture me at the start. For a Science Fiction book, the first thing it did is go into politics and describe a council meeting.

Which is not really captivating, describing a bureaucratic procedure and someone taking a vote on something which wasn't really described about some people whom haven't been introduced properly.

Like many Science Fiction/ Fantasy book it fails to establish the fictional world quickly enough in enough detail for the reader to understand, without being bogged down in a mass of description, or fictional history.

I think that some other way to introduce the writer's world should be tried, slightly more exciting than a board meeting and with a different emphasis on describing the people and the world they inhabit.

One of the major problems in starting an entirely new world in Science Fiction, rather than using someone else's established, recognisable one (Star Trek, Star Wars, etc etc.)

Hey, Elena ("Oko") Thank you so much for taking the time to read and comment given this genre is not, as you say, your thing! You didn't need to bother if it's not to your taste so I really appreciate your time and effort. Thanks also for the feedback on chapter lengths and such.

Not being much of a sci fi fan, this was hard for me to get into. In the beginning of chapter one (which is very long, you should consider shortening your chapters - they'll have more impact) it felt as though I was overwhelmed by the politics of it all, and wasn't really hooked from the start which first chapters should do. Chapter two was a little better, but I still had trouble getting immersed into the world - adding more description of the surroundings would definitely help this to jump off the page.
Try opening with a character in an extreme situation. The fact that Shayla controlled the situation made me not worry enough for her to keep reading. Something needs to be off balance and quickly.
That said, your writing skills are commandable, you obviously have great grammar and sentence construction. Just think more about the impact of you writing, connect with your reader emotionally and as a writer you should be in good shape.

Elena Y. ("Oko")

The early part of chapter one , made me think of a cross between Star Trek and Yes Minister!

Well, I'm a Trekkie for sure--back to the original series (I'm 50 yo so I was a kid when the original first ST aired in the US and I was madly in love with Mr. Spock--until my father pointed out that his family lived in the Jewish Ghetto of an area of Boston where my family had lived and the Nimoys were not a happy family. I think Leonard turned out just fine! *haha*)

I have NO CLUE who or what "Yes Minister!" is, sorry. Must be a British TV show?

Looks like a ripping yarn. Raif seems to stand out...

Thanks. I'm glad you enjoyed Ch 1. It *IS* a ripping good yarn--and taking a blasted amount of EDITING work!! Raif seems to be everyone's favorite, standout character. Mine, too. In fact, after I had a revisit to this book in 2005, revamping it into nearly its current form, I decided to write a prequel--so far it's only titled "Raif's Story." It's set 13 years earlier and tells the story I keep referring to, of how Raif and Shayla met, who the Phoenicians are, how come the Seven Chiefs sent this young girl to "the world Outside" in the first place. All of it. Plus Raif and Julia Travis--two feisty redheads. You do the maths *haha*

The early part of chapter one , made me think of a cross between Star Trek and Yes Minister! Looks like a ripping yarn. Raif seems to stand out...

I think I've worked out which of my reviewers spammed you. I will try to delete this, if you ask.

Marjorie,
I've added your book to my watchlist. Believe it or not - You came to my attention with your answer to one of the spammers. I don't like it when they promise things they can't keep. I am not sure if my book is one you would like, but why not look at my pitch to decide?

Gillian Bergh (The Patient Ate A Mouse)

I'm really enjoying READING this (those who know me, get that joke). Seriously, I'm liking the suspenseful edge that's building. I'm anticipating what comes next (because I've read it already and know) but the new edits are really working for me! Okay, back to regularly-scheduled readers and commentators now.

This is getting more addictive. I like the development of the Raif plot and now it has connected the whole story into one 'piece' for this chapter.

Thank you, Pokemon -- I mean, Pokemaster. I don't know why I didn't know who you were! *haha* Connecting the bits and pieces of the plot into a "whole" is the point of my editing process right now. The preceding book (a prequel, Raif's Story, which I haven't actually [i]written[/i] yet) sets up Raif's questions about his origins, connects him inextricably to Shayla and then it's all supposed to get answered and resolved in THIS book. I don't think the version I wrote in 1986 did fully resolve anything. I'm really excited to dig into that subplot this time 'round though. It's a REALLY good plot thread. There are others--there are multiple threads to the plot of every book in this series!--but the Raif thread connects to one who shall as yet remain unnamed :) yes, because I am evil and have a cunning plan!

I'm glad to hear it's still gripping. I feel like Ch 3 started to drag too much with all that introspective infodumping. It was interesting but it was still narrative -- telling not showing. Then again. it's not always necessary to show every little thing. Sometimes there's a place for telling. It's definitely more common in series writing than in standalone books and this is most definitely a SERIES, not just a lone book.

I'm listening to some speedmetal (The Prodigy) and BigBeats (The Crystal Method) trying to rev up my edge to do another pass at the bit where Raif grabs the a-hole. I completely replaced the entire Proctor's Lounge passage and it'll take a few passes to get it just right. I also need to revisit how casual Raif and Shayla are. I took out some of the "pretense of formality" between them and I think I need to put it back in -- until Kindi's tampering with Raif becomes really clear *hee hee*

This is getting more addictive. I like the development of the Raif plot and now it has connected the whole story into one 'piece' for this chapter. The plot thickens when the reader(me) sees that there, as always, is going to be a twist and turn and the fact that we find out that Raif was created and no one seems to know how. As well as the fact that the 'evil' Dramond is the only one with the records to his abilities and possibly his creation.
Can't wait for more. See you soon.

So this is different. None of the people who've read and commented so far (see below) have shelved (backed) the book. It is, however, on 2 shelves--by people who did NOT comment on it. Well, as much as I'd like the comments, too (more?) I have to say thank you to the two anonymous people who backed the book!

Been working on Raif's POV section (opening Ch 3) all morning. Still needs more work (editing) before I post it so it might not go up until tomorrow (Sat 30 July) Sorry for the delay but I'm hoping to make it worth it *g*

-Friday